JAN PĘTKOWSKI

The twenty-second day of the trial, 31 January 1947.

(after the break)

President: I hereby resume the hearing. Please call witnesses Pętkowski and Herbich in. According to the agreement between the parties, the witnesses do not have to swear an oath. Witness Pętkowski will remain.

Witness Jan Pętkowski, 46 years old, living in Wojcieszyn, farmer, no relationship to the parties.

President: What do you know about the case?

Witness: Your Honor, during the occupation I was working for the Central Welfare Council. Maurycy Potocki was the president. After Igo Sym was killed, we decided to use all our resources to prevent the deaths of the 400 or 500 people who had been taken hostage in the previous 24 hours. The German authorities were planning to shoot them.

Potocki, as the president of the CWC, intervened at Szucha Avenue, he talked with Müller. At first it seemed very serious, but things changed when Potocki told Müller that Igo Sym was not German - we knew him from before the war and about his family relationships. Müller was surprised because no one had informed him before who Igo Sym was. He told Potocki that he couldn’t do anything, for Fischer had taken over the case. Müller explained to Potocki that Igo Sym and Fischer knew each other, and because it was personal, Fischer had taken it over. Without his consent, Müller couldn’t intervene in the situation of the hostages.

After what happened in Wawer, we found this situation very urgent. Potocki, following Muller’s advice, gathered a few important people and they all went to Fischer to tell him the same thing Potocki had told Müller at Szucha Ave.

I’m a fluent German speaker, for I went to school in the territory of the Prussian Partition, so it was I who called at the Brühl palace. Janusz Radziwiłł was willing to go and meet defendant Fischer at once. We agreed on the line of argumentation, on how we wanted to prevent the shooting and the next day, at 10 am, we all went to meet the defendant.

I remember that in the hallway I met prof. Władysław Studnicki, who had come there with the same purpose. He had been waiting since 8 AM. He was devastated, all the more so because the governor hadn’t agreed to meet him. He told me, trembling with fear, that hundreds of people would die.

Fischer wasn’t alone. There were a high-ranking SS officer and a civilian – it might have been the head of what was called the Innenverwaltung.

At first, Fischer behaved very strangely. He made a speech with a raised voice, saying that we had the opportunity to resolve this issue, that we ought to call upon the people to indicate the culprit. It was ridiculous.

Janusz Radziwiłł was the oldest and the most serious among us, so we decided that he would do the talking. After Fischer’s speech, Radziwiłł, for a rather long time, tried to explain to him how wrong and unreasonable he was. I remember he used words that in time turned out to be prophetic. He warned him that such proceedings would lead to the unpleasant end of his career. He also said that Warsaw couldn’t be threatened like this, that he himself remembered some blood-thirsty governors, whose ends were always very unpleasant. Radziwiłł affirmed that Fischer would make fool of himself, and that even though hundreds of families would cry over the loss of their relatives, the streets would laugh at him, that from such a menial figure as Igo Sym, whom everybody knew, he was making a model German citizen.

I have to say that Radziwiłł’s words made quite an impression on Fischer. At first, he yelled at us that we should mind our own business, that it was his role to maintain order, so he would do so and that is was not ours to decide how many people would make up for Igo Sym’s death. Nevertheless, Radziwiłł’s speech impressed Fischer.

In the end, Fischer, completely calmed, said that the case would be examined and we would be informed about the outcome of our intervention.

Indeed, after a few days, the information came. Müller, the bearer of the news, told Potocki that from among all the people who were to be shot for Igo Sym, 17, if I remember correctly, were killed - four or five of them were, as he said, political convicts, previously sentenced, and 13 were criminal convicts, as the Germans called them, taken from Pawiak or Daniłowiczowska.

That’s all I know about the meeting with defendant Fischer that took place after Igo Sym was shot.

President: At any rate, the basis of this statement is Potocki’s words, namely what he said after the intervention with Müller and also what the witness heard himself at the meeting with Fischer.

Witness: Well, at any rate, I say that the meeting with Fischer confirmed that the issue couldn’t be taken care of at Szucha Ave, because the governor was personally involved in the case of Igo Sym, so it couldn’t be managed without him.

President: What the witness has just said came up at Potocki and Müller’s meeting…

Witness: Yes, and which our visit to Fischer confirmed, that it was his decision. Yes, it was Müller who said that. He was the director of the criminal division at Szucha Ave.

Prosecutor Siewierski: I have no questions for the witness, Your Honor, but anticipating questions by the defense, I’d like to submit in evidence two decrees and ask the permission to refer to them. One decree is signed by Fischer, another by the relevant police authorities. The first one, incorrectly translated as a regulation [rozporządzenie], was published in the newspaper “Nowy Kurier Warszawski” on Friday, 7 March 1941. It states that:

On the 7th of March, in the morning, the director of Warsaw Theatre, a German citizen, Igo Sym was shot by a Polish citizen in his own apartment. With regard to this dreadful act, for the city of Warsaw, I order as follows:
1. imprisoning of more hostages;
2. banning, with an immediate effect, of all artistic productions in Polish theatres, revues, restaurants and other entertainment establishments till 7th April of the current year; 3. A curfew from 8 PM to 5 AM, until further notice.

There follows, in bold:

If the name of a culprit is not revealed to German authorities in two days, hostages will be killed. The regulation shall enter into force when announced. Signed Governor Fischer.

The second document is an announcement from 13th March 1941, issued by the Commander of the SS and Police in Distrikt Warschau. It is signed by SS-Gruppenführer Moder.

Dobiesław Damięcki, 42 years old, actor, who has been in hiding since the 7th of March 1941, is suspected of complicity in the case of the murder of Karol Juliusz Sym, the director of the Warsaw Theatre. The actress, Janina Irena Górska, who is pregnant, is accompanying him. Whoever has seen Damięcki or Górska on 7th of March 1941 or after is obliged to report it at the Office of the Security Police Commandant in Distrikt Warschau in Warsaw, Strasse der Polizei (Szucha Avenue) 25, or at any police station. Whoever helps Damięcki or Górska after the publication of this article will be punished. If anyone helped them before the publication, they will avoid the punishment if they immediately provide the police with information. The reward for information that leads to the capture of the suspects is 3000 zł and is only for civilians. Police officers are not entitled to the reward. The payment of the reward will take place without legal prejudice.

This is an encouragement to the citizens, [a promise] that there will be no disappointments, no sharing of the reward.

Now, I want to invoke evidence – the testimony of Dobiesław Damięcki, who stated that Janina Irena Górska is his wife’s stage name, and that she was indeed pregnant at that time.

The announcement concerning the shooting is not signed by Fisher, but by Moder, and is attached to the testimony of witness Płoski. What is more, according to the notes from page 26, among the 17 people shot by the Gestapo for Igo Sym were many prominent Polish citizens, such as two professors from the University of Warsaw, prof. Zakrzewski and prof. Kopeć.

Prosecutor Sawicki: Among the so-called criminal convicts?

Witness: No, they were political convicts.

Prosecutor: When you came to Fisher, as Müller suggested, did he say that this case wasn’t in his competences?

Witness: He was talking with us as though it was within his power.

Prosecutor: Did he say: you’re in the wrong office, it’s not up to me?

Witness: Fischer was there, and he was talking. By his side were the SS and Polizeiführer. At first, Fischer was just hovering. Radziwiłł’s speech was addressed to the Governor, who was the one that talked to us, those other two were just extras.

Prosecutor: You were working in the CWC. Did you visit Pruszków? What can you say about the administration’s attitude towards the camp in Pruszków?

Witness: When I heard that the first transport came to Pruszków, I thought that it was my duty to go there and help, do something about the food supply. Controls at the gate were very strict, there was no chance that they’d let anybody in. One captain came. I explained to him that my institution had the German authorities’ permission to bring help. That’s how I got inside.

No other sub-committee took any action. I was horrified. Those were the infamous transports from Zieleniak. People told me the story of a father who has been shot while trying to protect his 15-year-old daughter from being raped. I remember his name, Antoni Czarnecki, he was from the district of Poznań. They all looked terrible, a dozen 14-, 15-year-old girls, bleeding after being raped. It was painful to look at all this. I was wandering without purpose. There was no food for these people. I approached one mayor or a Hauptmann, I think his name was Bock. I talked to him and he let me organize some help. Passing by one of the halls I saw the Red Cross workers who were corralled there. I turned to this Hauptmann and told him that this made no sense, that potatoes are not picked while people are laying there doing nothing. I said that as a pretext. He agreed. A man named Polland was the camp manager, he was also the head of the Arbeitsamt in Pruszków. He was a very important figure in the SA, I guess he was a Brigadeführer. This Hauptmann gave his personal consent to release about 50 people who were randomly picked up under the pretext of working with potatoes. Many of them were from the Red Cross. I was managing 12 hectares, so I could have required about 50 people. Bock even assigned one military policeman to help me so, having the document I needed, we headed to the barrack no. 5. Unfortunately, as we were going there, we came across a few high-ranking German officers who were standing right next to the barrack no. 3. Among them was Kreishauptmann Rupprecht, the Warschauer Landrat.

Prosecutor: Administration officials?

Witness: Yes, civilians. Rupprecht, Grams, who was Kreishauptmann once in Sokołów, and many others. Rupprecht was a Doctor of Law and during those few years when I was in charge of the food supply, I met him at least 30, maybe 60 times. He was always very polite. When we were passing him by, he called to me. I thought this was very convenient, that I knew someone here from before, that it would make things easier. I have to admit that I was completely shocked when he yelled at me, asking what I was doing there. Like I said, he has always been very polite before. I started to explain that I was there to organize some help, that I was just about to fetch a dozen people to work in the fields. He was furious like an animal. He was yelling at me and even tried to throw me into the hall where people were being prepared for the transport. He called two military policemen who chased me off. I had to run from them. The document was destroyed and Hauptmann Bock ran away as soon as he realized that, apparently, he had done something illegal. All people whose names were on this document were taken to Auschwitz and, apart from Potworowski, who works in an official agency in Poznań now, no one returned from the camp alive. Many of the elite, among others the head of the Red Cross, Stanisław Wyganowski or Mrs Potworowska had previously been granted release. However, due to Rupprecht’s intervention, they were all killed.

Prosecutor: Did the military policemen obey Rupprecht?

Witness: They chased me for a while. I can say I was lucky, because the military policeman who chased me weighed even more than I did, so he couldn’t overtake me. Someone slid the door open and threw me out brutally. Things that were happening in Pruszków at that time are unspeakable. Rupprecht told me that he was throwing me out instead of sending me off to Auschwitz only because I was from the sochaczewski district. If I had lived in Warsaw, he’d have put me into the transport. He warned me that if he saw me in Pruszków again, not only in the camp, he’d call der erste Gendarm who’d shoot me like a dog. I went back home and sent my wife there. She worked in the camp for the next seven or eight weeks.

Prosecutor: You are talking about Rupprecht who died near Milanówek?

Witness: I don’t think he died. Such a Scheu like him in Sochaczew was a rare animal indeed. Until he treated me like I just said he did, he seemed to be a well-educated man.

Prosecutor: Do you know anything about the German administration in Pruszków?

Witness: When the deportations started, mainly from Narutowicza Square, the Ochota neighborhood, from Zieleniak, Polland was in charge. He was the head of the Arbeitsamt in Pruszków and Brigadeführer in the SA. It was the most horrible time. My wife came to the camp the same day and stayed there, so I also went the next day and the day after that. I wouldn’t be threatened by Rupprecht. After a week, colonel Sieber from the Wehrmacht took over charge of the camp. I can honestly say that the situation improved, we were allowed to deliver food. I don’t know who was in charge on paper, but in the beginning the camp in Pruszków was in fact under civil rule, of the administration authorities, and Kreishauptmann Polland, the head of the employment office, was manager there.

Prosecutor: Do you know about shootings ordered by the authorities who were in charge in Pruszków?

Witness: Well, when they were in charge, it was a real slaughter.

Prosecutor: You mean the conditions or the shootings?

Witness: When I was in the territory of the camp, not five minutes would go by without at least one shot. Personally, I didn’t seen anyone shot, but shooting was constant, they treated people worse than they would treat wild cattle.

Judge Grudziński: You were the board member of the CWC’s Warsaw department, is that correct?

Witness: Of the CWC’s Warsaw subdivision, to be exact, yes.

Judge: Apart from the meeting that you told us about, have you intervened with Fischer in cases of arrests at some other time?

Witness: I visited him only once, it was with Radziwiłł and Potocki.

Judge: Have Radziwiłł, Potocki, ambassador Wysocki or any other of the CWC’s board members intervened?

Witness: To my knowledge, Machnicki and Wachowiak intervened with someone many times, but I’m not sure if it was Fischer. I’m not sure because a delegate for care was there. I visited Fischer along with Radziwiłł and Potocki. I want to mention that we planned that Radziwiłł would talk because he had previously been arrested, and if they had him arrested then, it would have been a big deal. I remember that he predicted the current condition of defendant Fischer. He said, “going down like those before him”.

Attorney Chmurski: You claim that Fischer was impressed by what Janusz Radziwiłł said. Can you tell us how you know that and how you could be so positive about that as to testify it before the Supreme National Tribunal?

Witness: I am sure of it because I saw how Fischer behaved. At first, his voice was, let’s say, raised. He didn’t take the case seriously. I had the impression that he wasn’t exactly familiar with the case. Just like Müller, they didn’t know who Igo Sym was. Radziwiłł told them that Igo Sym was the son of a forester working for Polish State Forests and that his brother was a Kapellmeister in the military. Every paperboy in Warsaw would laugh hearing that Igo Sym was a prominent German citizen. Maybe it would be hurtful for Igo Sym, but we wanted to save those people. Moreover, Radziwiłł’s posture was really firm, he spoke fluent German with a specific accent and he used strong words, prophetic even. He said: “such proceedings will lead to the unpleasant end of your career. You will make a fool of yourself and even though hundreds of families will cry, the streets will laugh at you, they won’t be threatened by this”.

The outcome of our meeting with Fischer was very positive for thousands of hostages. After talking to the relevant authorities within the office, he admitted that we were right, that German authorities would look ridiculous if they made Igo Sym a Standarddeutsche as Radziwiłł called him.

Attorney: Did Fischer declare that he’d pass the case on to the authorities after what Radziwiłł told him?

Witness: As we were leaving, he said that he’d have a very close look at the case. He was very calm and didn’t say another word about any appeal. When Fischer said he could use some help while looking for the culprit, Radziwiłł answered that he had police for that and we were there just to warn him about the consequences of heedless decisions.

Attorney: Was there any discussion after Radziwiłł’s speech?

Witness: After the speech, we all had the impression that it had really convinced Fischer. He told us “Gentlemen, you will be notified when the case will be sorted out”.

Attorney: Did that SS-Führer, who was there, say something during the meeting?

Witness: Of course he did.

Attorney: What did he say and how?

Witness: He wanted us, Potocki, Radziwiłł and me, to make an appeal to the people and catch the culprit. It was completely unreasonable.

Attorney: He was talking to you aggressively or gently and politely?

Witness: I remember him saying: “I am here to prevent any riots and I don’t care if thousands of Poles die. There will be peace and order. If you came here to talk about this case, we want you to help us take care of it”.

Attorney: So he wanted to use repressive measures?

Witness: At first – absolutely.

Attorney: You mean this SS-Führer?

Witness: The tall one, I think it was Moder.

Attorney: And he wanted to use repression only at the beginning, or insisted on it during the whole meeting?

Witness: Radziwiłł’s speech made an impression on all of them, it was easy to notice.

Attorney: Which one of them was most impressed?

Witness: Fischer of course, because Radziwiłł was addressing him.

Attorney: And those hostages, were they shot?

Witness: To our knowledge, they weren’t.

Attorney: Thank you, no further questions.

President: Did you intervene in the case of prof. Kopeć and other professors that were on the list of hostages?

Witness: When it comes to prof. Kopeć, there were some efforts made to release him. If I remember it correctly from my discussions with Potocki, it was a losing battle.

Judge: Independently of this case, did Radziwiłł or maybe Potocki say they had intervened in the case of Igo Sym?

Witness: I know that there were many interventions at Szucha Ave, and no one ever said that any case depended on the governor. However, in the case of Igo Sym, even Müller, who was in fact in charge of those cases, said that he couldn’t do anything, because Fischer had taken it over.

Judge: Have Radziwiłł or Wysocki intervened with Fischer in cases that concerned Polish citizens?

Witness: Neither Potocki nor Radziwiłł. When it comes to Wysocki I’m not sure.

Judge: As to interventions with the police, apart from Müller’s, what names have you heard? I’m referring to the names of police chiefs in 1939, 1940, up to Sym’s case.

Witness: As the High Tribunal already knows, Potocki knew Göring from the times before the war. [Many times] they were hunting in Białowieża together. The Government used to organize those hunts.

When the German occupation began and people were being arrested massively, Potocki decided to use his connections and turned to Göring. In that time lives were being taken away on a grand scale, he wanted to save them. We tried to facilitate those interventions. I have to say that many of them were unsuccessful, police authorities weren’t very cooperative. Müller was the first who wanted to talk with us. [As a result of] our arguments, and in some cases even [as a result of] playing on emotions, he cooperated and made many releases possible. There are people who can confirm this. In some cases Müller had his doubts, for he was afraid of his subordinates. They were all being watched closely.

President: How do you know that?

Witness: Potocki used to go there and told me. We’ve worked together for a long time. He told me that once, when Müller had no power to decide, he [Potocki] wanted to intervene with his boss, Meisinger. But Müller advised against it. He told Potocki that Meisinger is the kind of man who didn’t like to be around Poles.

President: I’m not sure if I understand that.

Witness: I mean that any intervention with him would be unsuccessful. So Potocki didn’t go to Meisinger.

Prosecutor Siewierski: Why would it be unsuccessful? Is it because he was a stickler, or because he hates Poles?

[Witness]: In the German offices, we used to meet many officials, and those encounters were sometimes really dreadful. I will give an example. There was a man, Naumann, a deputy for food supply, who was open to the argumentation, a very cooperative one. Yet, I remember one meeting in Bydgoszcz, by the time he was fascinated with Blut… and he banged his fists on the table and said that the Polish people didn’t deserve to be fed. Wachowik got furious, he also banged his fists on the table and said that we worked honestly and that we were not there to listen to such political nonsense. Naumann went quiet, and then we were able to talk to him again. His successor, Kreder, he was an animal, he couldn’t be approached. He’d never return any Pole’s greeting. He was unbearable.

Prosecutor Sawicki: You divide Germans into two groups, those who were cooperative and those who weren’t. To which group did Meisinger belong?

Witness: Müller said that there was no point in talking with Meisinger, for he wouldn’t do anything about any of our cases.

Judge: Was he thinking that Meisinger was so biased against Polish people?

Witness: That he wouldn’t talk to us. I know that Potocki didn’t meet with him due to what Müller, who was well disposed toward us, said about him. Meisinger was Müller’s boss until he left Warsaw.

Attorney: You testified that Müller, when you intervened with him, said he needed Fischer’s consent.

Witness: No, he didn’t say that. He said, “I don’t want to put myself at risk with the governor in cases like this, I can’t do anything”. Müller was one hundred per cent sure that the Brühl Palace had crossed the line that time.

President: Potocki told you that?

Witness: We were in permanent contact.

Attorney: Did this statement of Müller’s concern only this case or all cases?

Witness: Only the case of Igo Sym.

Attorney: People who intervened with the Germans during the occupation were convinced that their actions would be successful and that, due to some specific reasons, it wouldn’t have negative results on them personally. Those people were Potocki, Radziwiłł and Studnicki in Warsaw and Ronikier in Kraków.

Witness: Dealing with the Gestapo was always dangerous. Potocki once went to the Gestapo and didn’t come back. It wasn’t Meisinger or Müller who detained him, just an ordinary official. I remember precisely that, while discussing our line of argumentation in the case of Igo Sym, Radziwiłł said that he’d bring matters to a head and that we had to take into account that Moder or someone else could arrest him. He said: “I believe it would be better if they arrested me, because the news will spread”. He thought it’d be better if they arrested him than me or Potocki. When going to the Gestapo at Szucha Ave, one never knew if one would return. People were turning to us with very different issues, including underground resistance activities like the case of the printing house at Długa street. That was when Potocki went to Szucha Ave and never came back.

Attorney: Is it a coincidence that Potocki used to visit Berlin when a case was very serious, that he has never turned to Göring?

President: I repeal this question.

Attorney: Would you explain on whose authority Polland worked?

Witness: He was the head of the employment office in Pruszków.

Attorney: For how long?

Witness: I don’t know, I met him in Pruszków.

Attorney: What can you say about his character?

Witness: Well, he was despicable.

Attorney Węgliński: Due to the absence of Defendant Mesinger’s attorney, Attorney Wagner, and due to the content of the witness’ testimony, which is of great importance for Meisinger, I ask you, your Honor, to order the witness to present himself at the afternoons’ hearing.

Attorney Chmurski: Was Polland an official of the Distrikt administered by defendant Fischer?

Defendant Fischer: Polland was an official of the Arbeitsamt, so he was subordinate to the civil administration. I’d like to say that according to the testimony of von dem Bach, it was Polland who established this camp. Witness Mazurek testified that he was present in the camp the first days after its establishment. He also said that on 6 August 1944, Kreishuaptmann Rupprecht, Bock, and Polland ordered 5,000 dishes to be delivered to the camp in Pruszków.

President: All this information is in the files.

Defendant: According to those testimonies, only from 6 [August] till 10 [August] was the camp under the command of Polland. From the 10th, it was SS-Stürmer Diehl who was in charge, so it was only for a few days. I was tied up in Warsaw during those days. I didn’t order the establishment of the camp, because I didn’t know about it.

I want to take the stand regarding the question of hostages in relation to Igo Sym.

President: We already have your statement concerning that case. It’s in the files, along with the testimony of Damięcki.

Defendant: I was promised that I could speak at any stage of the trial.

President: I see no need to repeat your statement.

Defendant: I want to say that the witness has confirmed my words. He testified that four or five people who were shot had been already condemned to death. The witness confirmed it, so I have to say that it wasn’t connected to Igo Sym’s case. As to the shooting of 13 others, I can’t state anything, for it was Moder who carried it out all on his own.

President: Will the defense refer to these documents?

(The defense will refer to them in the afternoon)

Judge: In cases supervised by the criminal police – you are aware of the difference – did you intervene at Szucha Ave? With whom? Or did you intervene with the criminal police?

Witness: We had so many political cases to deal with, that we had neither the will nor the time to intervene in criminal cases. We wanted to save as many political prisoners as possible. People came to us at Mazowiecka street, reporting that someone had been missing for three days. The first thing we had to do was to find him. We had our guy in the criminal police, I can’t remember his name now, maybe it’ll come to me later. He was later shot. We used to call and ask him to check where someone could be. If it turned out that the person we were looking for was in Pawiak, we already knew that it was the Security Police’s case; if at Daniłowiczowska Street, then it concerned what we called Cripo; if in Mokotów, it was a case for the German court, the Sondergericht.

Judge: When you found out that the case belonged to the Criminal Police, did you intervene? Was the division of competencies familiar to you?

Witness: The Criminal Police were also subject to the Kommandeur SS-Polizei. We were only human. The best people were dying at that time, so when someone was caught for smuggling, it just wasn’t ours to deal with. However, there were cases where the criminal police officers found out where someone was. They had their prison at Szucha Av. Daniłowiczowska belonged to the Criminal Police.

Judge Rybczyński: What was the name of this official?

Witness: Bartel. He was shot later.

Judge Grudziński: It is possible that someone worthy was caught by the Criminal Police. Would you intervene with them in a case like that? After all, you were getting everything done through Moder.

Witness: As for the cases concerning Daniłowiczowska, we were working with Bartel. He was an instructor in the Central Institute of Physical Education [Centralny Instytut Wychowania Fizycznego]. When the Germans arrived, he began to work in the Police, as a deputy or something like that. He became a German. Whenever we needed anything, Potocki would ask him to intervene, and in many cases, he helped us.

President: The court is in recess until 4 p.m.